Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK Victoria Cross 1850 -1905 Churcham (General)

by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Saturday, August 16, 2008, 21:53 (3770 days ago)

Pte. Henry (Harry) Hook (1373 B Co. 24th. Regiment).

Born at Churcham in Gloucestershire in 1850.
He first served in the Monmouth Militia and enlisted into the regular army at Monmouth in
March 1877 aged 26. He received a scalp wound from a Zulu assagai at Rorke's Drift,
which, in later years caused him some discomfort. He purchased his discharge from
the regular army in June 1880, but later served 20 years in 1st Volunteer Battalion, Royal Fusiliers.

Digest of Citation reads:On 22nd and 23rd of January 1879 at Rorke's Drift, Natal, South Africa, a distant room of the hospital had been held for more than an hour by three privates, and when finally they had no ammunition left the Zulus burst in and killed one of the men and two patients. One of the men, Private J.Williams (Reg No.1313)however succeeded in making a hole in the wall large enough to get through,and taking the last two patients into the next ward, where he found Private Hook. Working together; the two men, one holding the Zulus at a distance with his bayonet, while the other managed to knock through three more partitions; and they were able to bring eight patients into the inner line of defence

After his discharge in 1880, he resided at Sydenham Hill and worked at the British Museum.
He retired in 1904 and returned to live in Gloucestershire. Interestingly, there is some mystery
about his first marriage. His wife thought he had been killed in South Africa and ran off with
someone else. Hook married again in 1897 in Islington.

He died of pulmonary tuberculosis on 12th March 1905 at Osborne Villas, Roseberry Avenue,
Gloucester and is buried at Churcham. He received his VC from Sir Garnet Wolseley,
GOC South Africa at Rorke's Drift on 3 August 1879. (His VC is in the South Wales Borderers Museum Collection).

Buried in St. Andrews Parish churchyard, Churcham, Near Gloucester. Diagonally opposite to
the entrance on the other side of the church.

<><><><><><><><><><

Year: 1850
Month: Sep
Day: 1
Parents_Surname: HOOK
Child_Forenames: Alfred
Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Mothers_Forenames: Ellen
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Birdwood
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: Geo.C.Hall Vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P83 IN 1/10
Page_Number: 14
Parish_Chapel: Churcham


1851
Henry Hook abt 1829 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Head Churcham, Gloucestershire
Helen Hook abt 1831 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Wife Churcham, Gloucestershire
Alfred Hook abt 1850 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Son Churcham, Gloucestershire


1861
Henry Hoak abt 1832 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Head Churcham, Gloucestershire
Eleanor Hoak abt 1834 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Wife Churcham, Gloucestershire
Alfred Hoak abt 1851 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Son Churcham, Gloucestershire
Ellen Hoak abt 1860 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Churcham, Gloucestershire
Henry Hoak abt 1857 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Son Churcham, Gloucestershire
James Hoak abt 1854 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Son Churcham, Gloucestershire
Mary Hoak abt 1853 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Churcham, Gloucestershire

1871 Newent
Alfred Hook 21
Comfort Hook 20 Kilcot
John Jones 50
Ann Jones 48

1881 Glendower St
Henry (V.C.) Hook abt 1854 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Servant Monmouth, Monmouthshire

1891

Name: Ada Lettia Taylor
Name: Alfred Henry Hook
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 546

1901
Henry Hook abt 1854 Gloucestershire, England Head Islington, London
Ada Hook abt 1864 London, England Wife Islington, London
Catherine Hook abt 1899 London, England Daughter Islington, London

pictures at
http://www.rrw.org.uk/news/index.htm

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

Henry HOOK 1828 Churcham

by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Saturday, August 16, 2008, 22:43 (3770 days ago) @ slowhands

Year: 1828
Month: Jun
Day: 29
Parents_Surname: HOOK
Child_Forenames: Henry
Fathers_Forenames: Richard
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Churcham
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: Edw[ar]d Hawkins Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P83 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 51
Parish_Chapel: Churcham

1841 Birdwood
Richard Hook abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Churcham, Gloucestershire
Frances Hook abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Churcham, Gloucestershire
Henry Hook abt 1830 Gloucestershire, England Churcham, Gloucestershire
Joseph Hook abt 1828 Gloucestershire, England Churcham, Gloucestershire
William Hook abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Churcham, Gloucestershire

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

Henry HOOK 1828 Churcham

by joss, Sunday, August 17, 2008, 06:16 (3770 days ago) @ slowhands

Thanks for this, Slowhands. Being a big fan of all things "Zulu" I found it fascinating and if I ever manage to make it into the Forest for a sensible amount of time (no car so restricted to occasional brief forays on the bus from Monmouth!) I'd like to go any pay my respects.

TTFN

Joss (a Newport girl living in Buckinghamshire)

Henry HOOK 1828 Churcham

by malcolm, Monday, August 18, 2008, 23:35 (3768 days ago) @ joss

Joss,
You may be interested in the book "Hook of Rorke's Drift",the life of Henry Hook V.C. 1850-1905 by Barry Johnson published by Bartletts Press 2004.It is a very enlightening read and I have visited the Kilcot Inn mentioned in the book just outside Newent.
A friend did some of the genealogical research for the author.Just looked on this site and their is a marriage at Aston Ingham on 20/12/1870 of Alfred HOOK of age,Bachelor,workman,residence Aston Ingham,Father Henry HOOK,Labourer to Comfort JONES,of age spinster,residence Aston Ingham,Father John JONES,Labourer.
Alfred made mark,Comfort signed.Witness's:-John Jones and Mary SYSUM.The minister was Henry L WHATLEY.
Best Wishes,
Malcolm Brinkworth

Alfred HOOK 1850 Churcham m Comfort JONES

by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Tuesday, August 19, 2008, 02:23 (3768 days ago) @ malcolm

I wasn't 100% sure this was the correct marriage so I omitted it - esp. the confusion that Alfred may have died in SA allowing his wife to re-marry :-)


Year: 1870
Month: Dec
Day: 20
Grooms_Surname: HOOK
Grooms_Forenames: Alfred
Grooms_Age: of age
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Workman
Grooms_Residence: Aston Ingham
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Hook
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: JONES
Brides_Forenames: Comfort
Brides_Age: of age
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Aston Ingham
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Jones
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: John
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: [not stated]
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks she signs
Witness_1: Mark of John Jones
Witness_2: Mark of Mary Sysum
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Hy L Whatley
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AR90/7
Page_Number: 121
Parish_Chapel: Aston Ingham


1871 Newent
Alfred Hook 21
Comfort Hook 20 Kilcot
John Jones 50
Ann Jones 48


Year: 1871
Month: Dec
Day: 1
Parents_Surname: HOOK
Child_Forenames: Raymond John
Fathers_Forenames: Alfred
Mothers_Forenames: Comfort
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Kilcote
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: M.B.H.Burland
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P225 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 100
Parish_Chapel: Newent

Year: 1874
Month: Mar
Day: 1
Parents_Surname: HOOK
Child_Forenames: Mary Henrietta
Fathers_Forenames: Alfred
Mothers_Forenames: Comfort
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: W.G.Clark
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P225 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 118
Parish_Chapel: Newent

Year: 1876
Month: Aug
Day: 1
Parents_Surname: HOOK
Child_Forenames: Julianne
Fathers_Forenames: Alfred
Mothers_Forenames: Comfort
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Gorsley
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: E.H.Sankey
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: P.B.
Notes:
Register_Reference: P225 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 141
Parish_Chapel: Newent


1881
John Jones abt 1819 Worcestershire, England Head Newent, Gloucestershire
Ann Jones abt 1824 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Wife Newent, Gloucestershire
Comfort Hook abt 1849 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Newent, Gloucestershire
Raymond Hook abt 1872 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Grandson Newent, Gloucestershire
Henrietta Hook abt 1874 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Granddaughter Newent, Gloucestershire
Julian Hook abt 1877 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Granddaughter Newent, Gloucestershire


1891
John Jones abt 1828 Worcestershire, England Head Newent, Gloucestershire
Ann Jones abt 1828 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Wife Newent, Gloucestershire
Comfort Hook abt 1851 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Newent, Gloucestershire
Raymond Hooks abt 1871 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Grandson Newent, Gloucestershire
Julia Hooks abt 1876 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Granddaughter Newent, Gloucestershire

marriage
Name: Comfort Hook
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1895
Registration district: Gloucester
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume Number: 6a
Page Number: 559


MEYRICK David
HOOK Comfort
Gloucester Gloucester Register Office
1895 14 131


Name: Comfort Meyrick
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1900
Age at Death: 48
Registration district: Newent
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 161

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

Henry HOOK 1828 Churcham

by joss, Tuesday, August 19, 2008, 08:40 (3768 days ago) @ malcolm

Thanks for this Malcolm, will look for a copy.

TTFN

Joss

Pte. Alfred Henry (Harry) HOOK Victoria Cross 1850 Churcham

by REVSSS, Saturday, August 29, 2009, 02:27 (3393 days ago) @ slowhands

Looking for henry hooks wives maiden names.thanks

Eleanor HIGGS 1831 Churcham ?

by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Saturday, August 29, 2009, 07:28 (3393 days ago) @ REVSSS

Year: 1831
Month: Feb
Day: 20
Parents_Surname: HIGGS
Child_Forenames: Eleanor
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Churcham
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: Edw[ar]d Hawkins Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P83 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 59
Parish_Chapel: Churcham


Name: Ellen Higgs ?
Name: Henry Hook
Year of Registration: 1849
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Gloucester (1837-1937)
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 467

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

JONES' at Rorke's Drift, Zulu War, V.C. recipients.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, December 27, 2014, 23:48 (1446 days ago) @ slowhands

For the umpteenth time I've just watched the "Zulu" feature film about the defence of Rorke's Drift. I just wish I'd seen this thread before watching it, I had no idea one of those awarded the Victoria Cross was a local man from Churcham.

I also wish I'd taken more notice of the film's closing credits, which lists the eleven V.C.s awarded after this battle. My reason for posting is not to discuss "proper" FoD family history at all !, but to record my pleasure that the ONLY JONES V.C. recipients were two brave men whose names combine to bear my son's name !
Not a great claim to fame I agree, but I like it :-)

My son was named William Robert JONES, William after his grand and g-great grandfathers, and then Robert after my middle name (which was a random choice). Not a surprising coincidence of course, as hardly unusual names, but I still think a rather good one.

The film has us believe it was largely fought by Welsh soldiers singing "men of Harlech", so I initially thought there may have been a higher percentage of Jones' present. I do know the action is justly commemorated at the Brecon Barracks of the (now)Royal Regiment of Wales, their Regimental March is indeed "Men of Harlech", and the film is watched by every new recruit. However, as has been already mentioned on this forum, the soldiers involved at this battle were drawn from right across our area from Monmouthshire to Birmingham;

"The 1964 film Zulu is a depiction of the Battle of Rorke's Drift. The film received generally positive reviews from the critics. Some details of the film's account have, however, been criticised as historically inaccurate (for example, in the movie the regiment is called the South Wales Borderers but the unit was not in fact called that until two years after the battle, although the regiment had been based at Brecon in South Wales since 1873). While most of the men of the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment of Foot (1/24) were recruited from the industrial towns and agricultural classes of England, principally from Birmingham and adjacent southwest counties, only 10 soldiers of the 1/24 that fought in the battle were Welsh. Many of the soldiers of the junior battalion, the 2/24, were Welshmen. Of the 122 soldiers of the 24th Regiment present at the Battle of Rorke's Drift, 49 are known to have been of English nationality, 32 were Welsh, 16 were Irish, 1 was a Scot, and 3 were born overseas. The nationalities of the remaining 21 are unknown."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rorke%27s_Drift#Defensive_preparations

The V.C.s awarded during the Zulu War are listed here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Zulu_War_Victoria_Cross_recipients

One of the two JONES V.C.s, Robert, was actually from the Welsh Borders, Raglan area. After the battle he settled in Peterchurch, Herefordshire, only to later commit suicide as a direct result of his awful experiences and wounds at Rorke's Drift.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jones_(VC)

His fellow JONES namesake William was from Evesham, Worcestershire. Sadly he had to pawn his V.C. before dying a pauper in a Manchester workhouse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jones_(VC)

"Foresters" V.C. recipients during the Zulu War

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, December 28, 2014, 17:07 (1445 days ago) @ Jefff

Thanks Roger for your interesting posts. Yes you're right of course re the film and it's makers. One thing has clearly changed over the years, perhaps not for the better except for realism, the film has a notable lack of gore when depicting the brutal hand-to-hand combat. Despite this when I first saw the film as a lad I felt it very unfair on the relatively-unarmed Zulus against modern rifles, I then found a book in Cinderford library to learn the facts. Perhaps if I'd also seen the later film "Zulu Dawn", based on the massive defeat the Zulus had inflicted on the British Army a few hours before Rorke's Drift, then my youthfull sense of fairplay would have been more balanced ? - not to mention learning that our modern weapons did not work as well as they were supposed to, a recurring theme into WW1, on land and at sea.... a sore point for me given my pride at British engineering achievements and my own subsequent career working with the Services.
Of course it must not be forgotten, the Zulus were merely defending their own land against an invasion...

-------------

Reviewing all twenty-three recipients of V.C.s during the Zulu War, four of these brave men are from our general area; the aforementioned Alfred Hooke, the two (unrelated) Jones' who fought alongside each other in one of the hospital rooms at Rorke's Drift, and also John Williams from Abergavenny, another Borderer. Williams fought alongside Alfred Hooke within the Hospital at Rorke's Drift.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Williams_(VC)

Of course many other soldiers fought and even died in this War, including at least one other Forester, Courtney FROWEN of Newland, this prior thread refers;
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35386

(Roger, I note with interest you term the modern Regiment "the Royal Welsh" - I typed this last night before bowing to Wiki and re-typing "Royal Regiment of Wales", which in my opinion still doesn't sound correct !)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Zulu_War_Victoria_Cross_recipients

"Foresters" V.C. recipients during the Zulu War

by Roger Griffiths @, Monday, December 29, 2014, 21:26 (1444 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff, these amalgamations make my brain hurt. Apparently the Royal Regiment of Wales (24/41)was formed 1969 from South Wales Borderers and Welch Regiment. May have changed since then.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, December 28, 2014, 00:25 (1446 days ago) @ slowhands

As posted earlier today I watched the 1964 film "Zulu" on tv, not for the first time.
It appears that Alfred HOOK V.C. was rather poorly treated in this film. I haven't read the aforementioned book, but his Wiki entry states

"In the film Zulu, Hook is depicted as an insubordinate malingerer placed under arrest in the hospital, only to come good during the battle. However, Saul David writes in his book, Zulu: The Heroism and Tragedy of the Zulu War of 1879, that he was there as the hospital cook, subsequently as part of a small guard detail assigned to protect the patients. Saul David continues that far from the miscreant portrayed, Hook was actually a teetotaler and model soldier."

Further to this, he had been awarded Good Conduct pay shortly before the battle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hook_(VC)

That website also states
"Most of the characters in the film were based on actual participants of the battle, but their behaviour is mostly fictional – something that has provoked disapproval: in an interview on the DVD, the descendants of Private Hook objected to his portrayal as a thief and malingerer (although his character acts bravely near the end of the film during some desperate fighting). Indeed, Hook's elderly daughters walked out of the film's 1964 London premiere."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_(1964_film)

The above-mentioned author Saul David was also involved in this BBC documentary from 2003. Clearly the actual events of that day in 1879, and their portrayal in the subsequent film version, describe a very sad tale however you read it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1444554/Wrong-men-given-VCs-at-Rorkes-Drift.html

----------------------

I must say that reading these accounts have saddened me and distinctly tarnished what had been a high opinion of this "classic British" feature film.
Next summer my son finishes his A levels and hopes to attend a specialist film-making college in West London, I will remind him to try his best to always portray real people accurately and respectfully.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Roger Griffiths @, Sunday, December 28, 2014, 13:12 (1445 days ago) @ Jefff

I am going to go away and try and find the Links to some interesting stuff on Rorke's Drift. Photograph of defenders after the battle. I can't see it on the Royal Welsh's website, but that's probably just a sample of the gallery. Transcription of BBC interview with Colour Sargeant Bourne circa 1935!!!! etc. There are two serious objective websites on the Zulu War.

Trouble is film makers are creative artists, they like historical subjects but then let their imaginations run away with them. The Zulu film was and is an all time winner like Lawrence of Arabia. There's a TV programme re the making of, and it was probably Stanley Baker's widow who said that within two weeks 'we knew we had a winner' and that was pre-release. I think that Stanley Baker was prime mover for the making of the film and he put a Welsh Nationalist slant to it. The 24th (2 battalions) was the South Warwickshire Regiment at the time. Only after 1881 Cardwell reforms did county affiliations start to mean anything.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Roger Griffiths @, Sunday, December 28, 2014, 13:53 (1445 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths

Colour Sargeant Bourne's BBC Radio Transcript.

www.rorkesdriftvc.com/defenders/tran.htm - radio transcript

Since corrected Link.

Offered commission after Rorkes Drift but couldn't afford it. However, he ended up as a Lieutenant Colonel OBE DCM. 1854 to 1945.

Also see Wikipedia entry for life and a photograph.

www.britishbattles.com/zulu-war/rorkes-drift.htm.

Pic. of B Coy. 24th after the battle, but not the one I was looking for which was much more closeup.

This Link doesn't seem to work, will try others. Will work if you google it.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Roger Griffiths @, Sunday, December 28, 2014, 18:56 (1445 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths

For those interested the main site is worth looking at.

www.rorkesdriftvc.com. Biographies and photographs.

I hope people have read Bourne's BBC interview 30th December 1936. It's a very revealing insight.

Bourne said, and he was there, he reckoned there were 600 to 700 Zulu's at Rorkes Drift, not the 3,500 (Lord Chelmsford) put in his report. Lt. Chard's report of the action is on the internet somewhere.

Bourne was portrayed as an older sergeant major type of the best type for gravitas. Bourne was only 24, but must have been highly thought of by his superiors and was effectively company sergeant major. He spoke of his sergeants.

Hook as mentioned had good conduct record and no doubt got his job at the British Museum because of it.

The Martini Henry rifle was a man stopper. Weighing less than a Lee Enfield, the whole thing with sword bayonet only weighed 9lbs 4.75 ounces. 0.45 calibre. Rate of fire was 12 rounds a minute. Velocity 1,250 feet per second. Ideal firing range 400 yards, but could go out to 1,900 yards. Americans captured examples in Afghanistan as late as 2011.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, December 29, 2014, 00:48 (1445 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths

Thanks Roger,
Yes the Rorke’s Drift website is excellent, and has helpfully answered my own query raised after reading on Wiki that the Welsh-sounding John Williams VC was of Irish descent ? – I see he was actually John Fielding !
http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com./vc/williams.htm
The action's full Rollcall shows a few more men serving under assumed names, including another of “my” Jones’; Pte Evan Jones of the Borderers was actually Patrick Cosgrove, I guess also of Irish descent !
http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com./battle/roll.htm

I wonder if this list includes any more Foresters ?.

-------------------

Yes the M-H Rifle was indeed a powerful weapon, especially in good hands and given good ammunition. Our own Alfred Hooke apparently said “We were using Martini's, and fine rifles they were too”, I won’t argue with him.

My comment earlier related to it’s reported cartridge problems at Isandlhwana, reminiscent in my mind to our “dud” shells at the Somme and Jutland many years later. This has been much discussed, there was even a tv documentary filmed in South Africa maybe 10 years ago. I believe the reported “jamming” problems were much-exaggerated by the British Army, to hide their own leadership failures which led to their shock defeat to “spear wielding natives” at Islandlhwana.

Your post confirms another oddity I spotted in the film, the orders to fire at “100 yards range" - no doubt good for dramatic effect, or for Napoleonic muskets, but surely far too short here ?
http://www.martinihenry.com/zulu-wars.htm

However it should still be remembered that a weapon that’s good on paper, or even the factory ranges, may struggle in actual service. Official proving tests for a new Victorian design would not have used suspect cartridges, or simulate the increasing stresses of repeatedly firing within a hot and dusty environment, both potential killers for a complex mechanical assembly. When I started in Defence work in 1984, almost a century after the Zulu Wars, I was amazed at the demanding specifications our equipment had to be proven to satisfy, seemingly incredible extremes of temperature, vibration, etc etc. However the First Gulf War still proved that even these tests on expensive modern equipment don’t always ensure survival in the field, especially when heat and sand-ingress are present !
And yes, a few M-H rifles were still in use at this time, possibly including copies manufactured in the Khyber Pass region near India. This perhaps puts it on a par with another alltime classic firearm, the Russian AK-47 assault rifle, designed in 1945 but still in service worldwide due to good performance, easy manufacture compared to Western equivalents and supreme reliablility in all conditions.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Roger Griffiths @, Monday, December 29, 2014, 11:06 (1444 days ago) @ Jefff

The Wikipedia item for Buffalo River has a photograph of the military bridge below Rorkes Drift, presumably in 1879.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Roger Griffiths @, Monday, December 29, 2014, 21:50 (1444 days ago) @ Jefff

It's somewhat frustrating that descriptions of battles are so often contradictory. Isandlwana. One version is that ammunition re-supply failed.Infantry officer to commisary, 'surely, you don't want a chitty now?'), leading to drop in firing rate which allowed Zulus to close in in overwhelming numbers. Also I have recently read that our troops were standing at least 6' apart. Not ideal for handing out ammo.

Rorkes Drift. No soldiers were killed by assegai's. All gunshot wounds. Zulu's must have come back from Isandalwana with captured Martini Henry's.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, December 30, 2014, 00:39 (1444 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths

Hi Roger, thanks for your input, always interesting to me altho I fear we maybe beginning to bore the rest of the forum, so one last query if I may ?
I'm afraid your last post has confused me, ie
"Rorkes Drift. No soldiers were killed by assegai's. All gunshot wounds. Zulu's must have come back from Isandalwana with captured Martini Henry's."

Sorry, are you saying this is a statement of fact, if so very surprising to me.
Or is this what was officially reported at the time, to save embarrassment perhaps ?
Certainly the official British losses I've seen appear low compared to the impresson given by the film (of course). Altho these figures seem reasonable to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rorke%27s_Drift#Aftermath

Clearly I'm not as well-read as you are, but I thought many were wounded by assegai's and presumed some must have died ?. Or have I just assumed too much from the film (which is notably blood-free...) ?
Since typing the above I've read much of the following speciallist thread, such as the fact an assegai wound was "clean" so treatable, but haven't yet seen any clear statement regarding casue of deaths. http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php/5652-Rorke-s-Drift

So on reflection I conclude your comment is indeed factual, as you presumably intended it to be. That thread suggests abt 1000 M-H rifles were taken at Isandlhwana, so if only 100 went-on to Rorke's Drift then still enough to gain a few "lucky" hits, and as you said it fired a beast of a bullet. However it always seemed rather ridiculous that the film's long-range sharpshooting by the Zulus rather put the redcoats to shame, contrary to the actual accounts and all common sense.
Still a top film tho, superb use of scenery, light etc; a great spectacle particularly as NO digital electrickery involved.

Thanks for helping me learn the facts behind the film.
Today I watched "Dambusters" yet again, so back on much more familiar ground again !

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Roger Griffiths @, Tuesday, December 30, 2014, 10:50 (1443 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

I know, I go boring on about subjects I'm interested in. A bit more and then I'll self silence, tee hee.

From what you wrote earlier, I assumed you had read Lt. Chard's after action report and appendix listing all men there and fate.

The whole thing with colonial wars was the fire power and the 'disciplina' of the Roman Legions as exercised by European armies. I once found a Victorian army manual in the British Library, detailing requisite numbers of regulars and native auxiliaries required to defeat all possible native enemies. PC brigade would not like it at all.

Natives made better 'fighters' than Europeans who were better 'soldiers'. Carl von Clausewitz in Vom Krieg alludes to this, although early 19th Century Prussian Army had no experience as yet.

Isandlwana was a total disaster because, for whatever reason, the Zulus were able to advance to contact and engage in hand to hand combat. At Rorkes Drift, however close they got they fell to massive firepower as depicted in the film and in battle paintings.

One last thing, we didn't take prisoners. Any Zulu wounded left after the battle were shot or bayoneted.

Pte. Alfred Henry HOOK V.C. - poor treatment in "Zulu" film

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, December 31, 2014, 01:38 (1443 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths

Cheers Roger,
no I hadn't read Chard's account, until today that is. It certainly proves that wars are serious things indeed, and best avoided if possible.
http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/vc/chard_account.htm

Some people, including CND activists who'd camped outside RAF Greenham Common, have asked me why I've worked in the "bloody" defence trade. I haven't made guns or bombs, but I have engineered equipment for British military aircraft, vehicles and even warships, as well as their civilian relations.
I wholly agree with Roosevelt's "speak softly, and carry a big stick." I believe the reason those British ladies were able to camp outside Greenham Common protesting against the nuclear deterrent, is largely because we had it in the first place, otherwise they may well have been speaking Russian...
Post WW2 the USA's bombers flew under "Strategic Air Command", motto "Peace is Our Profession"; again that makes complete sense to me. I am not in favour of war if avoidable, but I do standup to bullies. I'm not overproud of our aggressive Empire-building in the past, but I am very proud of what my ancestors and our servicemen & women achieved against the likes of Napoleon and Hitler, and how our engineering prowess has supported their efforts; without the World Wars technology in all walks of life would be way-behind what we all enjoy now. Wars are never "good", but sadly they are sometimes necessary.

Anyhow, "rant" over, just felt I should explain my views to anyone who may think me a warmonger because I'm interested in tanks and guns, I'm not.

Back to your last point Roger, which casual readers may think shows the British soldiers in a very bad light, murdering unarmed wounded natives. I think the following forum thread sums-up my view, and I think reality, very well; it discusses a modern newspaper article suggesting these were war crimes.
http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=994


I'll leave my very last word on this terrible day in 1879 to the Rorke's Drift website;

"The film was perhaps too political in that it portrayed the British as an evil conniving force out to bring down the peaceful Zulu nation. It is true that unreasonable demands were made on the Zulus. Demands which were unrealistic and maybe not achievable, within unreasonable timescales, if not impossible to meet. On the other hand, the Zulus, though a great people, were ruthless and whose own political ambitions had made them the most feared race in central Southern Africa. Under King Shaka, they expanded their empire from 10 square miles to cover most of central Southern Africa in the early 1820's, not before many of their own people had been massacred. On the death of Shaka's mother (with whom it is suggested he had an "unnatural relationship"), 5,000 of his own people were put to death. Perhaps they didn't grieve loudly enough. After Shaka, Dingane took over (having had Shaka murdered), then Mpande, and eventually after a dual between brothers, Cetyweyo became king. In any event having reportedly killed 20,000 of his own people. According to their spiritual beliefs, the Zulus disembowelled their foes to release the spirits of the dead.# They did however hang drummer boys up on meat hooks at Isandlwana and cut off their testicles. After this, drummer boys were not allowed to enter battle zones again."
http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/zulu_dawn.htm


# Some say in respectful kindness to the dead, but others say to save the victors from being haunted by the spirits of the vanquished....


Thanks again Roger for helping me better understand this whole subject.
I appreciate this final post is not all local Family History, but I think the recent turns of this thread on such a gruesome subject is better for these points being clarified. I do hope my openness hasn't upset anyone, thankyou.

"Dean man BAGLIN a soldier at Isandlwana, Zulu War ?

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, January 03, 2015, 21:33 (1439 days ago) @ Jefff

Today I've been browsing the Welsh Newspapers site aiming to find soldiers from the Dean, expecting to find WW1 stories. Instead I found this intriguing article which by coincidence has returned me back to the Zulu War thread much sooner than anticipated. Despite the battle occurring on 22nd January, due to the sheer remoteness of the battle from the journalists and telegraph stations, plus the likely reticence of the Army command and War Office, it was almost a month before any news reached British newspapers, and even then this was tempered by news of the victory at Rorke's Drift, such as this report from 14th February.
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3558502/ART29/zulus%20defeat
The next day far more revealing news about the Isandlwana defeat was released.
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3419864/ART93/zulus%20defeat

Hence this story from a few months later was about a still-relatively unknown battle as far as the Foresters were concerned, so different from the "instant news" world of today ! I believe the Army transport ships took about three weeks just to sail from the UK to Natal, so returning survivors of the defeat could easily take many more after rehab and so forth.

-----------

From the Cardiff Weekly Mail, 26 April 1879

"EXTRAORDINARY IMPOSTURE IN DEAN FOREST.

A SHAM ISANDULA HERO.

George Henry Skipp, of Newnham, waa charged at Coleford police court, on Tuesday, with obtaining money by false pretences under somewhat peculiar circumstances. The prisoner, a man of very emaciated appearance, went on Monday to the house of Mrs. Baglin, at Berny Hill, whose husband's brother was killed at Isandula, and told her that he was in the fight and saw her brother-in-law slain. Ha added that he took a red pocket handkerchief from the fallen soldier, and had brought it home, stating also that he (the prisoner) received a bullet through his foot, and was injured in the shoulder. The prisoner then suggested that Baglin should make an application to the War Office as he was entitled to £40 or £50, and offered to write a letter, which he did, claiming, on behalf of Baglin, his deceased brother's pay. Prisoner asked for a shilling to send the letter eff, and was given sixpence, all the money the woman had. It was shown that prisoner made other calls in the neighbourhood, and waa five times entertained with refreshments. Sergeant Hawkins proved that at two o'clock on the previous night he found the prisoner at a lodging house in the town, where he told the same story, having his foot bound and appearing lame. On removing the bandage he discovered a poultice placed upon the stocking, and on removing the stocking there was no trace of injury or wound. The prisoner held a long parley with the chairman, and adhered to hia statement as to his presence at the battle, and was exceedingly flippant in his replies to the interrogations of the bench. Eventually he was committed to prison for three months, the Chairman remarking that before the time expired, in all probability, they would know a little more about the Zulus than at present. Could the Bench have sent him for six months they would have done so. Prisoner impudently thanked the justices, and was removed."

http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3418583/ART31/soldier%20dean%20forest

I'm hoping that someone can please verify whether there was a Forester, or a brother of one, named Baglin at the major defeat at Isandlwana on 22nd January 1879 ? The bulk of the British men at the battle were the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 24th Foot, later named the South Wales Borderers, they almost all of their 540 died. Perhaps this story was covered in more detail in FoD papers c/o the BNA ?. Are there complete freely-available online rolls for the losses at Isandlwana, or does anyone own them on cd etc ?. I've tried searching online and have found the following list, which I think might contain all of the c1000 British deaths at the battle, but cannot find a Baglin listed.
http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/zulu/despatch5_isandhlwana_isandlwana_cas...

I don't have access today to FindMyPast, whose records surely cover this period of British Army records better than Ancestry ?. Of course this case occurred relatively soon after the battle, so maybe a Baglin was present, but was injured rather than killed, so is not on any Roll ?. I presume "Berny Hill" should be Berry Hill.

All thoughts greatly appreciated, thanks.

-------------------

I've also searched for the miscreant but without much success. The FoD PR database contains several George Skipps, but which if any ??. As this is the only George HENRY Skipp on the database, could he be a descendant given the similar timing ?. This site's WW1 Soldier database doesn't include any Skipps/Skypps etc. I cannot find any prior threads that relate.

Record_ID: 16111
Entry_Number: 1173
Year: 1883
Month: Jul
Day: 18
Parents_Surname: SKIPP
Child_Forenames: George Henry
Fathers_Forenames: William
Mothers_Forenames: Eliza
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruardean Woodside
Occupation: Waggoner
Officiating_Minister: J.B.Beesley Rector of Ruardean
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: P[rivately?]
Notes: Beasley?
Register_Reference: PFC109 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 147
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: S100

Record_ID: 122589
Entry_Number:
Year: 1914
Month: Apr
Day: 13
Grooms_Surname: SKIPP
Grooms_Forenames: George Henry
Grooms_Age: 31
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: labourer
Grooms_Residence: Raglan
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Skipp
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: William Thomas
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: labourer
Brides_Surname: VEDMORE
Brides_Forenames: Emily
Brides_Age: 23
Brides_Condition: spinster
Brides_Occupation: dom servant
Brides_Residence: Wyesham
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Vedmore
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: George
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: miller
Licence_or_Banns:
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark:
Witness_1: George Vedmore
Witness_2: Ira Vedmore Other_Witnesses: Thomas Vedmore; Edith Vedmore; Louisa Skipp
Officiating_Minister: J W Rickards
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Wyesham
Soundex_Groom: S100
Soundex_Bride: V356

"Dean man BAGLIN a soldier at Isandlwana, Zulu War ?

by dink999 @, Sunday, January 04, 2015, 10:56 (1438 days ago) @ Jefff

Jefff,

Along with what you have detailed from the Welsh newspaper, the Gloucester Journal of 26th April 1879 gives some more Baglin family information.

Edith Baglin, with of Ephraim Baglin, of Berry Hill, stated that on the previous day prisoner came to her house and asked if Ephriam Baglin lived there. She said "yes". He then inquired if she had'nt had a son killed in the Zulu War. To this she answered "No, but her husband's brother was killed there"

The newspaper then gives details of what George Skipp[s] offered to write.
"I, Eprhaim Baglin, a brother of No. 1527, Private Bom. H.M. G. Company, 2.24 Reg Foot was killed on the 22nd January, in the Zulu War. I am the only brother alive belonging to im and I claim what belong to im"

I will have a look for the military information and let you work on the Baglin family details

Dave

Edith & Ephraim BAGLIN, Christchurch / Berry Hill

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, January 04, 2015, 15:20 (1438 days ago) @ dink999

Excellent stuff, thanks Dave !
So the Baglin brother was indeed in the "Borderers", be good to see his Army details if possible, thanks.

So from this site's PRs;

Record_ID: 263870
Entry_Number:
Year: 1936
Month: Dec
Day: 3
Surname: BAGLIN
Forenames: Edith
Residence: Coleford
Age_at_death: 96
Officiating_Minister: Wyndham Jones vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P82 IN 1/16
Page_No: 69
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: B245

So Edith was born abt 1840. Cannot find her Baptism, this could be her birth record ?

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HAWKINS Edith HAWKINS HAWKINS ADAMS 1840 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 1 383
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/SimpleSearch.aspx

Record_ID: 2373
Entry_Number: 148
Year: 1861
Month: Dec
Day: 8
Grooms_Surname: BAGLIN
Grooms_Forenames: Ephraim
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Five Acres
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Baglin
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: HAWKINS
Brides_Forenames: Edith
Brides_Age: full
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Five Acres
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Hawkins
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: James
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Engineer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He signs she marks
Witness_1: Oliver Baglin
Witness_2: Rhoda Hawkins
Other_Witnesses: None
Officiating_Minister: W. H. Taylor
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Notes: -
Register_Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 74
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex_Groom: B245
Soundex_Bride: H252

Record_ID: 263583
Entry_Number:
Year: 1925
Month: Apr
Day: 1
Surname: BAGLIN
Forenames: Ephraim
Residence: Berry Hill
Age_at_death: 88
Officiating_Minister: A Hoyle vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P82 IN 1/16
Page_No: 33
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: B245

So Ephraim born abt 1837, fits nicely wrt wife Edith.


Looks like their daughter Edith ?, born abt 1880;

Record_ID: 26161
Entry_Number: 392
Year: 1903
Month: Nov
Day: 7
Grooms_Surname: PRICE
Grooms_Forenames: William James
Grooms_Age: 26
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Quarryman
Grooms_Residence: Coalway Coleford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Price
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: George
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Quarryman
Brides_Surname: BAGLIN
Brides_Forenames: Edith
Brides_Age: 23
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: Domestic Servant
Brides_Residence: Christ Church Berry Hill
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Baglin
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Ephraim
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Sydney Price
Witness_2: Fanny Gwilliam
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Edward H. Brice
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P 93 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 196
Parish_Chapel: Coleford
Soundex_Groom: P620
Soundex_Bride: B245

And her son ?

Record_ID: 6475
Entry_Number: 758
Year: 1903
Month: Jan
Day: 18
Parents_Surname: BAGLIN
Child_Forenames: Ephraim James
Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Mothers_Forenames: Edith
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Berry Hill
Occupation: [not stated]
Officiating_Minister: C. Barnes
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born Dec 8th 1902
Notes:
Register_Reference: P82 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 95
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: B245

My how my memory's failing, just realised we discussed Ephraim Baglin b1837 only weeks ago !
see this thread http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=45071
This prior thread suggests this may be Ephraim's family in

1851, at Joyford Hill.
Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth Place.
Thomas Baglin Head 33 1818 Male West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Sophia Baglin Wife 31 1820 Female West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
John Baglin Son 16 1835 Male West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Mary Ann Baglin Daughter 15 1836 Female West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Maria Baglin Daughter 12 1839 Female West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Emma Baglin Daughter 9 1842 Female West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Fanny Baglin Daughter 11 Mo 1850 Female West Dean, Gloucestershire, England


The PRs give the corresponding baptisms to parents Thomas(as per his marriage Record) and Sophia(possibly).

Year Parents_Surname Child_Forenames Fathers_Forenames Mothers_Forenames Mothers_Surname Residence Occupation Parish_Chapel
1833 BAGLIN John, Thomas & Sophia, Joyford Collier Christchurch
1836 BAGLIN Eliza, Thomas & Sophia, Joyford Collier Christchurch
1837 BAGLIN Mary Anne, Thomas & Sophia, Joyford Collier Christchurch
1838 BAGLIN Mira, Thomas & Sophia, Mount Pleasant Collier Christchurch
1841 BAGLIN Emma, Thomas & Sophia, of Coleford Coleford Wesleyan Methodist
1843 BAGLIN Jane, Thomas & Sophia, of Joyford Glos Coleford Wesleyan Methodist

Searching all Baptisms for father Thomas Baglin gives another "possible", but not a soldier;
1840 BAGLIN Mary Anne, Thomas & Ellen, Joyford Collier Christchurch

SO could the soldier have been John Baglin b1835, possibly a little old for a battle in 1879 ?.
OR maybe it is his possible half-brother William Herbert b1822, as helpfully pointed out by MPG earlier ?. This might explain why Ephraim uses the name William again for his own son b25.4.1877(wrt Scowles School Register), perhaps in memory of his lost brother ??

I cannot check the Census' now, but searching thro the PRs and GlosBMD records I cannot trace either men's future whereabouts with certainty, particularly William's ??;

Could this Burial PR, just months AFTER Isandlwana, have been named in memory of a soldier who died there ?

Record_ID: 89385
Entry_Number: 395
Year: 1879
Month: Dec
Day: 23
Surname: BAGLIN
Forenames: John
Residence: Berry Hill
Age_at_death: 11 wks
Officiating_Minister: W.H.Taylor
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: PFC82 IN 1/14
Page_No: 50
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: B245

William BAGLIN b1877, son of Ephraim, Christchurch

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, January 04, 2015, 22:05 (1438 days ago) @ Jefff

Re Ephraim's son William born 25 April 1877 according to the School Registers,

I cannot find a Baptism, but this fits, from GlosBMD;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
BAGLIN William BAGLIN BAGLIN HAWKINS 1877 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 35 49

(So born 2 years BEFORE Ephraim's brother apparently died at Isandlwana, so was not named "in his memory" it seems)

This Burial PR fits nicely;

Record_ID: 248002
Entry_Number: 49
Year: 1939
Month: Oct
Day: 2
Surname: BAGLIN
Forenames: William
Residence: Mile End R.D. nr. Coleford Glos
Age_at_death: 62 years
Officiating_Minister: Wyndham Jones vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: new church yard 3rd row No. 13
Notes:
Register_Reference: P82 IN 1/17
Page_No: 7
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: B245


Think this is his marriage, altho need Census confirmation, from GlosBMD;

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
BAGLIN William HARDWICK Gertrude Amelia Forest of Dean Coleford Baptist Chapel 1908 2 4

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HARDWICK Gertrude Amelia HARDWICK HARDWICK TROTMAN 1886 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 44 193

Record_ID: 6017
Entry_Number: 308
Year: 1887
Month: Dec
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: HARDWICK
Child_Forenames: Getrude Amelia
Fathers_Forenames: George
Mothers_Forenames: Amelia
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Lane End
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: D. J. Banham (Curate)
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born Oct 13th 1886
Notes:
Register_Reference: P82 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 39
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: H632


Cannot find PRs for their children's Baptisms, but GlosBMD has;

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
BAGLIN William Leslie BAGLIN BAGLIN HARDWICK 1909 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 2 241
BAGLIN Ronald BAGLIN BAGLIN HARDWICK 1911 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 3 182

----------------

Once again the Berry Hill Crescents have a W. Baglin in this 1905 team photo, looks like he could be our William aged 28 ?. Also several Hawkins, perhaps his mother's family ?.
http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Broadwell/Berry-Hill-Crescents-1905.htm

This thread confirms it is a William !
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=7555
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/berryhill/pages/page_28.html


=====================

LATER UPDATE: Ref the earlier post suggesting the lost soldier was William HERBERT, possible half-brother to Ephraim Baglin, I cannot see him in this Isandlwana Casualties Roll.
http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/zulu/despatch5_isandhlwana_isandlwana_cas...

???

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