John Gough (and reasonable doubt?) (General)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Monday, April 05, 2021, 22:45 (246 days ago)

John Gough was the youngest surviving son of William Gough of Saint Briavels and his wife Catherine nee Portrey, but identifying him has been extremely difficult. Only Theophilus Jones' including him in the family tree in his History of Brecknockshire made me aware of him, and his brother James Gough Aubrey inscribed his name on a plaque remembering all Gough brothers in Ystradgynlais church in 1784.

But he does not seem to appear in the Ynyscedwyn estate papers (though some of these I have discovered are in the Aberpergwm papers and I haven't thoroughly gone through those yet). Mr Griffiths here was kind enough to find mention of him in the mid 1750s petition to the House of Lords by William Gough, Richard Gough and the brothers of the latter.

So, his existence is attested enough, but what is his birth?

Now, I have paid for a month on Ancestry and found a Johes (Johannes = John) Gough baptised in October 1733 at Newlands. His parents are given as Guil and Eliz in Latin, which would logically be William and Elizabeth - which would be the wrong mother's name. BUT Latin for Catherine would presumably be Ecat, so maybe they wrote it wrong?

The things that makes me really think this could be John are
1) The father's residence in the baptismal record is given as Highmeadow, Newland and 2 of the records of the Ynyscedwyn estate papers (D/D Yc 537 which is undated) (D/D Yc 538 dated
1730) say "William Gough of Highmeadow"
2) Catherine, wife of William Gough, died in 1733

Now, is this enough to make an identification? Did Catherine in childbirth? She certainly seems to have been having one baby a year as much as possible, for example Charles born in 1732 (born c June, died October 1732).

If John is born in 1733, he is 22 or so when he is mentioned on his father and brother's petition to the Lords. Did he live longer and marry? One very tiny possible clue for him doing so is that in the First World War there is a soldier, discharged 1916, with the surname Gough and with Fleming in his name, who MIGHT be a cousin of the main Gough line, because he is NOT anyone descended from William Gough junior

Best Regards
Jon

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 01:02 (245 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

Regarding George, we know he died young but when?

https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/parish_records/php/view_details.php?table=fod_burials&...

No record seems to be conclusive, but this has a George Gough dying 1740 and the officiating minister is James Davies, curate, here at Hewelsfield but whom we also know well from Saint Briavels at the time

Are these places close by?

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 01:07 (245 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

There is of course this other William Gough

https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/parish_records/php/view_details.php?table=fod_burials&...

Buried Saint Briavels August 1737, listed as Gentleman

Clearly not part of the main Gough family because we have both William snr and jnr living well past this date, but another gentleman of note of the same name

I don't know how I am supposed to know how to decipher the records?

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:07 (245 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

Morning Jon

(just to say....I'm a Mrs not a Mr) so I think Katherine died as a result of childbirth. John was christened 7 October 1733 and Katherine was buried 10 October 1733.

If you search on the National Archives for William Gough of Highmeadow - there are a number of hit's including.

1732

Same suit. Declaration of William Gough of Willsbury, gent., of the service of a subpoena...

Deeds, estate and family records of the Hall (of Highmeadow) and Gage families of Newland. Additional Documents. Same suit. Declaration of William Gough of Willsbury, gent., of the service of a subpoena upon the wife of the defendant, William DAVIES/DAVIS

Held by: Gloucestershire Archives...

(there are about 6 records - going back to 1606

Grant by WARREN GOUGHE of Huellesfield, gent to William HALL of Heymedowe, esq., of rents and services etc. etc.

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:19 (245 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

National Archives

Held at Gloucestershire Archives

10 October 1737

Counterpr of Lease of the fishery to Mr MABBETT

1. Rt Hon, Tho Visc GAGE

2 Jos MABBETT of Coleford, Glos., gt 5 yrs at £26 per annum

River Wye; mes or tenmt called the Fishhouse, all in part of English Bicknor

signed by 2.

Witnesses
: John DAVIS; Peter Williams; Will GOUGH


Seems to be links between the GAGE and GOUGH

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:44 (245 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

I wish Ancestry would let me bookmark things, it keeps saying I have to create a tree if I do that, so I can never find the same thing twice!

Did you mean that the curate signing the papers was called Gage? I can't locate that record now.

Flustered Regards
Jon

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:46 (245 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

Jon

I always take a photo on my iPad.

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:50 (245 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Just been reading about 18th burials - said it usually took place within 3 days of death.

Probably the Gough's were visiting at the time, as there is something about babies having to be christened in case they died (can't be buried in the churchyard etc).

Ancestry

Gloucestershire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials - 1538-1812

Newland

Page 237 of 530

Johes GOUGH (John GOUGH)
Baptism
7 October 1733
Father: Guil GOUGH
Mother: Eliz

(who took the baby to be christened? almost certainly not the mother)

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 09:19 (245 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Thank you - that certainly would be three days, baptism on the 7th, Catherine's burial on the 10th. Perhaps they baptise the baby immediately if the mother is seriously ill from childbirth, or has even died?

I wonder how it worked if William Gough has several houses. I assume a closer look at the Ynyscedwyn estate papers will say who each one is let out to - in the 1723/4 settlement it lists which family members are tenants where, I think.

I haven't got the full details of William's siblings, mother etc as the Goughs interest in Ynyscedwyn began with him and his marriage to Catherine. But it would be useful to know the dates for Douglas, Warren, Mary, and his mother. I believe somebody here offered me that, but I had not ticked my envelope on the profile at that time. I'll have to chase them up and see if they would kindly send me the information.

Best Regards
Jon

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Friday, April 09, 2021, 17:29 (242 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

I have found a couple of references to John and the even more mysterious Jane Gough referring to them as "sp", sans progeny, and thus unable to be the originator of any collateral line that might have ended up with my curiously-named person from the First World War. It seems highly unlikely that we should be looking at any line even further back (Charles' brothers) so the coincidence of having "Fleming" in the name must just be that, a coincidence.

Best Regards
Jon

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:20 (245 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Sorry! I meant to put MP Griffiths, not Mr! Late night brain...

Perhaps this is as close as we can get to knowing for the moment?

But as you say, keeping looking turns up additional records for the Goughs in all sorts of places. When I started I thought it would all be held in the Ynyscedwyn Papers of the West Glamorgan Archive Service.

Best Regards
Jon

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